The Craft of Creativity with Matt Cronin

Matt Cronin

Carlos: Hi, and welcome back to Teaming with Ideas. My guest today is the esteemed Matt Cronin, professor at the School of Business at George Mason University and a guy who I met three or four years ago when my book was published. Matt was an early reader and we got talking about teams and teamwork and collaboration as a result of that. And, I've stayed in touch over the subsequent years. Matt? How are you doing?

Matt: I'm good! Thank you.

Carlos: Good. I am delighted to have you on board here. By the way, GMU, George Mason is down in Fairfax, Virginia, where I lived for a fair amount of time. I'm now up in the New York City area and we are doing this, of course, via Zoom. Matt, so what I know about you is that piece about you being a professor. I do know also that you are a musician, you play a bit of bass. Do I understand that also that you are biker?

Matt: Yes. I do ride a motorcycle. I crashed it around this time last year. But you know, now things are better and I play a little guitar and drums, too. So I'm obviously, like you said, a professor at the School of Business at George Mason, I'm active in the conflict management division of the Academy of management. And I serve as the Chief Scientific Officer for Process Metrics at our University Research Institute, which is actually also what you and I started talking about early on when we were looking at how to increase collaboration and large scale hospital construction teams.

The Craft of Creativity

Carlos: That's right. Yeah. I remember that project you were working on. Yeah. I want to begin with one of your books, one that you wrote, and I actually have it with me here. Jeffrey Lowenstein is your coauthor on this, right?

Matt: Yes.

Carlos: It's called The Craft of Creativity and I bought your book after we met. I've always been interested as a person myself who came out of the arts - my first master's degree was in theater- all I really wanted was to be a professor of theater, misguided youth that I was…

Matt: A lot of jobs there.

Carlos: Yeah. Ton of jobs. Big, big bucks. But creativity is fascinating to me. So, I bought the book and I remember reading it because I'm pretty much a guy with a one-track mind. All I could think about is teams and creativity, and collaboration and creativity. And I didn't find much. I was just the other night leafing through the index again, saying, “Maybe I missed something.” And I started to go through my bookmarks and my highlights in the book. And, I didn't find a whole lot, but I wanted to ask you about that.

Matt: You break my heart with your question, because I actually got into studying creativity through teams. I felt that team creativity was in fact best but was the most fragile. Which is why it's so rarely works. And, ironically, the canonical example I give to that is: think about bands that break up and good people do solo work. In almost no cases do those people make more impactful, meaningful work than when they were with their original band. So, there are lots of people who go off and make more money or even get Grammy's. The one you usually hear in that case is Simon and Garfunkel. Right? So, Paul Simon won a Grammy for Graceland.  But my guess is that in 200 years, we'll still hear Sounds of Silence, those songs. But, I'm not sure we're going to hear Graceland. Similarly, one of my favorite bands, The Police, was my other example. And I was very gratified when Sting eventually got on and did his little Ted Talk and said all this work he had done as a solo musician was garbage and he needed to get back to his roots. ‘Cause you know, I feel like a million people will say they were influenced by The Police.

Carlos: Right, yeah.

Matt: Anyway, so that I feel like to make any idea work, no single person does it, right? There's always a team involved. But really there is a magic when there can be a synergy among team members that is really special and really important, but it also is really fragile because we all have these biases that make us think, “I'm the genius here.”  Or, when it's creative, we can think, “You may disagree with me and since it's creative, we don't have any authority to appeal to.” Right? We have to sort of work through what might be right. And that requires a lot of conflict management and a lot of mutual respect. And so, it's really, really difficult to maintain that over the long haul.

The Fragility of Creativity

Carlos: Alright. So, let's hang with this for a minute ‘cause I think it's fascinating. I'm sort of glad we've never had this conversation before because it makes for good rich content. You use the word “fragile” to describe creativity in a team. And I hear you talk about that there's a tendency to conflict.  Intuitively, I understand what you mean by “it's fragile in a team.” Let me just check that that intuition is directionally right, anyway. Is that because we have lots of different personality types; different needs for being heard; different interpretations of what we mean by creative; different thoughts about what's right versus what's not right?  That kind of stuff?

Matt: You could probably be a little more narrow and say that creativity is fragile because when we are producing something that is of our own self, which is usually what good creativity is. Of course, the people who study creativity like Theresa Amabile, they say intrinsic motivation is key. We create about things that we really care about and are deeply concerned with even if others may be like, “Oh, well, whatever,” you know. If you think about - well, you know this as an actor, right - think about the amount of time a director puts in to getting people to say the lines the right way.  Right? Just the amount of attention and focus and all of the, the “sturm und drang” that can go into getting it right. Fixing problems that most people would never even notice. Right? Creativity has to come from sort of deep in the person. When it comes from deep in the person, it means they're not going to be so happy when you say their kid's not too cute. You know what I mean? You know?

Carlos: Wait, wait, what do my kids’ faces have to do with creativity?

Matt: No, like, so I guess…

Carlos: Oh, wait. So, their kid being their creation. Sorry. I'm a bit slow.

Matt: Right. I mean, and it's one of the things they say in the video game industry where there's a lot of creativity going on is, “Kill your babies” It's not a phrase I like particularly much being a father and all, but that's the point. Creativity is very personal to people. And so when you and I both want to bring something into the world and there's conflict, it's very easy to get wrapped up and to take it personally and to not let go. That's the fragility. The fragility is that it's really difficult for us to be dispassionate and objective. But the most successful creative people actually are. They're ironically, passionately dispassionate, right? So, I've interviewed artists who say, “Yeah, you know, this is a product that I'm making and the user has to like it and it has to fit the style. And so there are these parameters. But it's always got my signature.”

Carlos: Got it.

Matt: So, in a team it's very hard to navigate that sort of shared sense of what we're trying to bring into the world that we think is really important. And again, think of parents. Right?

Diversity and Conflict

Carlos: Yes. Being a parent myself. Yes. Finding the shared point of view on whatever it may be. So, let's go to something you and I mentioned before we started today: diversity. Because everything I hear you saying that fragility, it seems to me, would only be exacerbated or made more apt to happen if you had folks with a lot of different points of view, perspectives, backgrounds. And that could also include gender, race, sexual orientation, that kind of thing. That diversity - I think the trope is - diversity is good for creating innovation because you've got all these different points of view and therefore you're going to have richer solutions and maybe more interesting ones. I'm getting the sense that may not be true from what you’re saying.

Matt: Yeah. Unfortunately, the marketers love to say that. But that's not the actual research truth. And there's a lot of meta-analyses on these because diversity is a double-edged sword. It can bring different experience, but it also brings social categorization, right? “Us-Them”. So, for instance, you can have in a group, this set of people thinks we should do A, and that set of people thinks we should do B. And because it's identifiably different sets of people, “Oh, they always think like that,” right? That's the problem. Now, of course, where this also gets muddled, is we like to talk about the visible racial, ethnic gender, those sorts of things. But when I was doing my dissertation work at Ford, it was designer-engineer. Engineers, “They thought like Blockheads,” and “They've got no imagination!” And then designers were, “Children who just wanted everything and everything was important,” and right? It's very easy for us to categorize. And so when there is diversity, it makes that harder. The frustrating thing is that the process that gets us over that is respect. And in all of my work and I've seen it in bands and I've seen it in Ford, right. You know, respect is that, “I think I should listen to you even when I disagree with you, because I hold you in some level of esteem.” And when that's true, even when you say to me, “No, that's, that's not a good idea,” and it's a really important idea to me, I'll get angry, but I'll still listen and I'll still be civil.

So, I'm all for diversity for the social good. But it's kind of frustrating that people don't…they almost lead people to believe that,  “Diversity it's great, no problems.” And then people get into diverse teams there's conflict, and they're kind of like, “Wow, we didn't expect this.” And we should be providing some tools to say, “Okay. And when there is conflict…

Carlos: Right.

Matt: “Here’s the way to deal with it.”

Carlos: By the way, just for the listeners, Ford being Ford Motor Company, the car people.

Matt: Yes. Yeah.

Carlos: Wow. That's cool. You worked with them when you were working on your dissertation. Now, let's go back to that conflict thing for a second.

Matt: Yeah.

Carlos: You teach teams. You've studied teams. You've written about teams. I'm imagining a listener to this podcast thinking to him or herself or themselves, “Okay. So, creativity is a good thing.” And by the way, Matt's book is extremely practical in terms of creativity and how you go about fostering it. So, you might want to look into that. It's called the Craft of Creativity and Matt Cronin's name is on the front with Jeffery Lowenstein. These managers can look at your book, but I'm thinking they're also wondering, “So what can you tell me today? Because my company's a good company and we want to do the right thing socially.” Right? I worked at Mars for a long time. Mars is profoundly committed to social justice and environmental justice and things of that sort. And I'm proud of that. So, doing the right thing, Matt, how do I make the most of the fact that I've hired a really diverse group of people? All, by the way, functionally competent; they're all good at what they do. Right?  I don't have any dummies on my team. But what can I do? Any thoughts about that?

Matt: Yeah. Manage conflict. That is the key. And there's a thing called task conflict, right? Conflict over what we should be doing to get things done. And it's supposed to be good. ‘Cause the theory is when you and I disagree, when we talk about why we disagree, we unearth more information and that gives us sort of a richer well from which to draw, to make better solutions. The challenge though, is that when we're in conflict, we naturally get frustrated. Always. Right? So, the only kind of conflict that is really unemotional is the conflict that you don't give a crap about. Right? But when you give a crap about it, then unfortunately the emotions, like it or not, creep in. Again, respect is one of the ways to manage that. So, trust is another thing, as well. Trust, you know, when I know that you're saying you're disagreeing with me, not out of malice or for advantage, but really, you know, because with genuine concern and legitimate cause it's easier for me to not get as upset about it. So, the managing of diversity…. And by the way, this is the same with non-diverse people working together, as well. Managing conflict is about trying to understand where the other person is coming from and working with it. Not necessarily agreeing with it, but literally working with it. There's a lot of shortcuts. So, unfortunately, a lot of the shortcuts that get played out is things like, “Yes, and.” Like we should just say, “Yes, and.”

Carlos: Wait. That tried and true improvisation technique? You're going to trash that, Matt? You yourself having studied improvisation!

Matt: If you're improvising, I'm going to say it’s may be different than if you're making a product and resources are limited and time is short, right?

Carlos: Fair enough.

Matt: There are important contextual differences there. And so, when it comes down to, “We can't do everything,” what do we cut? Do we cut your idea or do we cut mine? That's what I'm saying about the capacity to legitimately work through in good faith to what the answer is. So, whenever people come at it from a different angle, the typical reaction is not to understand, it's to convince. Look, when you tell me, “I think we should do something different.” I don't say, ”Well, why do you think that?” I say, “Well, no, I think we should do it my way because…”.

Carlos: Okay. That's when we get into counter-convincing,

Matt: Right. And that's what starts the cycle and that's what starts frustration. And once we get frustrated, then we stop listening. That is why if we can build beforehand, we can have a good solid relationship.

Trust and Respect

Oh, and it's funny that you say this because one of my favorite peak points about your work is, “Skip the trust fall,” I love that. And I say that all the time in every class I teach because what people miss is that when we work well together, that's what causes us to trust and respect each other. Not, “We go swing on the ropes and now we're ready to work well together.”

Carlos: I was going to ask you, if we go do a ropes course, then we're going to have better creativity because conflict is managed. I want to go back there for a minute because you schooled me pretty nicely last year at some point when we were talking about trust and respect. And people often throw those two together in teams, right?

Matt: Yes.

Carlos: “We don't have enough trust or respect,” or, “We really have a lot of trust and respect,” as if those two things go hand in hand, and, almost as if they're the same. Now, maybe there's some overlap, maybe in that Venn diagram, there's a little overlap there. Would you talk about that for a minute? I'm fascinated by it.

Matt: There is definitely a lot of overlap, but the key difference is that when I trust you, I don't think you're going to harm me. I think that when you make decisions, that you're not out to gain advantage. You're capable of making a decision that is going to be good and will not cause me pain, right? So, you can lack trust because you're not on my side, you're looking out for yourself. So, that's a lack of benevolence. Or, you can lack trust because you're a clod and you're going to mess up the project and then I'm going to have to fix your mistakes, right? Or because you lack some kind of integrity, right? So those are the things that make us not trust others. When we worry about their intent and its harm to us. Respect though, is about the value I placed on your ideas and your capabilities. So, it's possible that I might - what we saw at Ford – “Yeah, I trust that the designers are good designers. In fact, they're some of the world's best designers. It's just that I don't think design matters that much. I think design is kind of like, ‘Whatever, who cares.’”

Carlos: So, is that a lack of respect for the category of design?

Matt: The value of that thing that they do is not high, right?

Carlos: And that's a little different. So that's not at all about the person. That's about their discipline

Matt: In all cases, it's when you can trust or respect what comes from another person, because of who they are, because of their discipline, because of whatever. That was just an example, right? You know, you can think about respecting enemies. Enemies that you respect, you pay attention to ‘cause you think they're good at what they do and you know you have to watch out for them. You would never trust an enemy because they are out to harm you, but you can respect them. Similarly, again, you might trust somebody very much, but just not think too much of what it is they're good at or what it is they're trying to do. You may just think, “Eh.”

Carlos: Could you give me an example of what that looks like in a workplace team? So, I trust them, but I don't respect them. I feel like that's not something I see very much.

Matt: I bet you see it a lot. This is not going to be a popular thing. But when the bureaucrat comes in and says, “Here are the new rules we would like you to fill out because the organization thinks this thing now. “Here's a million more administrivias is that you have to do.” You might think that person is just doing their job but what they're asking me to do is stupid. And that's a lack of respect. You may trust that they're not out to harm you. And they may even have the benefit of the organization in their mind, but you may think what they're asking you to do is just busy work.

Carlos: You're absolutely right. Yes. Those are things we see all the time, especially in large organizations, where there is a lot of bureaucracy and rule following and compliance to pay attention to. So, we've teased apart trust and respect a little bit. We've mentioned trust falls, ropes courses, knowing our Myers-Briggs is not necessarily a pathway to trust.

Matt: Yep.

Carlos: We have said working together - this has been my experience and your research, I think, and research you're aware of confirms this - working together tends to build these things, both trust and respect, I would imagine - certainly trust. So, if our point is we are a marketing team or an R&D team and creativity is important to us, the thing we need to do is start the conversations about creating this new thing, and be ready for when the conflict comes up to manage it so we can continue to be productive. Am I putting it together right?

Matt:  Why don't we even pull back before we get to the point of needing creativity? When we have to go in and do our regular old job, find a way to demonstrate competence and benefit to the other and that will increase trust and respect. Carlos and I had a great experience where he came in to teach for one of my teams classes and the power went out in the building. We had no PowerPoint, no nothing, right? So, we went outside onto the stairs or the walkway and Carlos kind of held court with pen and paper and got it to work. Didn't complain. Didn't say, “What kind of slipshod university do you work for?” And that was awesome. That totally increased my respect because it was adaptive. It was helpful.  You didn't make me feel like an idiot, though. Even though it wasn’t my fault, I sort of, I felt foolish that this is what we had to do. Those kinds of experiences are the things that build up that trust and respect. And again, at Ford, though the designers and the engineers often got into fights, every one of them had a story about working on a project with someone from the other function, about something that needed to get done, and, they, they really brought their A-game. And they were so impressed by the A-game that was brought and the work they did put in and the outcomes, that is how we build that foundation. Then we're ready to be creative.

Carlos: Right.

Matt: And we can do that before we ever have to be creative. We don't have to be creative all the time. Creativity is like salt and food. You need it, but very little.

Carlos: So, I'm sitting here thinking about conflict resolution because it's an area that I've struggled with as a guy who's thought about, written about, worked with teams. I've got a client right now where I've got some task-related conflict. It's all about the way the work is supposed to move through the pipeline and the business, and then get out to the client/customer. I want you to help me with this. I believe these people respect each other. This is a fairly sophisticated business. It's in the health sciences area, and these are all smart people, who have demonstrated a mastery of their various fields, yeah? Some of that technological, some of it medical, some of it interpersonal, but they're all like…

Matt: Listen, if you're smart and mastered your field, you're obviously very personally competent and mature and all sorts of other things.

Carlos: Obviously, right? There are, indeed, some science-type nerds in this group who lack people skills and I'm trying to help them because they're stuck now… they've got to keep pushing out stuff. They're going through some other changes in the organization. They have to keep the factory running. They have to keep the business going while they add on a couple of functions and they know they need to just get along, right? And it's difficult to know where to start when you've got folks who are well-meaning, respect each other's functional capability, but there's some sort of suspicion there that the other person who's in the marketing function or in the R&D function doesn't have the best interests of…they don't have my best interests at heart. They're just doing it for themselves. I guess that's what's going on here. The respect is there.

You can get what you want by helping others get what they want

Matt: Well, I think that what you just said is the trust is not if they're worried. But part of it is also that we worry easily when we don't know what's going on, which is why communication, especially when there's conflict, is really critical. I always reduce my negotiations course to, “You get what you want by helping others get what they want,” which is an old Zig Ziglar tagline. But it's a really good one, because it means you have to understand what they want. And most people don't try to understand what the other side wants. They're telling you why you should understand what they want. And, when we do that, when you really tell me, “Hey, listen, this is what I need to know”, and, “This is what I'm struggling with,” and, “This is what I'm trying to get at,” then I can think, “Well, I'm going to try and help you do that. Can you help me?” And then, if you help me, then that's what gets the cycle of reciprocity going. The challenge is that somebody has to take the first step. And most people when they're in conflict, they play their cards close to the chest. But if I don't tell you what I want, you can't give it to me and we're done. So, really the thing to do is to sort of say… have everybody start by just explaining the problems they're trying to solve. And then, at least that will get the information ball rolling. And then as people know more, they can trust more.

Carlos: So maybe even a step before that is take the temperature down, create some sort of setting where we can get the emotional level down a bit so that I can talk to you about what's on my mind without coming across as if I've got an axe to grind, right? So, “Here's what I want,” without a lot of emotional baggage to it. So, there is a place for a person who's good at calming everybody's nerves a little bit before you get into that.

Matt: And honestly, I will teach people, you have to ask questions and understand. And then I'll give them an exercise that shows them that. And then I'll say it again and I'll give you another exercise and they won't do it. So, I'll say it again and then I'll give them another, right? This is only because we are habituated to defending our positions. And nowadays, jeez, it's I mean, that's like nobody's listening, right? Nowadays the answer is shout louder. So, it is really almost like a habit. It's one of these things…you know, you want to lose weight, eat fewer calories. That is the truth, but that's a lot easier said than done.

Carlos: Yes.

Matt: You can take away the emotion, but they still have the habit of justifying why they want what they want. Right. So, it's almost like you have to sort of be there to sit and sort of say, “Okay, but wait,” and ask them why they want that. Try to understand, ask questions, seek first to understand then to be understood.

Carlos: To quote it…that was Covey, I think. Maybe it was somebody before him…

Matt: I think maybe it was.

Carlos: It’s funny. We've got Zig Ziglar. We got Stephen Covey, the elder. We're pulling on some oldies but goodies here from a guy who's like Mr. Academic and knows all kinds of research from obscure people. But I love it. Look, at the end of the day what I want is my brilliant listeners to have something to take away. And I think-what were the words again? “To get what you want, help other people get what they want.” How did you put it, Matt?

Matt: Yeah. You can get what you want by helping others get what they want.

Stay Curious

Carlos: That alone… just apply that to a group setting and saying, “Okay, for team leaders out there, you might need a little active facilitation,” right? As, as people start to go into their defensive routines, you might need to say, “Hey, Carlos, you know, you don't need to defend your position here. Talk about what you want. And let's think about how others might help you get what you want so that they can get what they want, ultimately.”

Matt: Yeah. And again, the idea of asking questions. When someone else is telling you what they need, ask questions. Don't correct them or redirect them.

Carlos: I sometimes think of that as, “stay curious.”

Matt: Yeah.

Carlos: So, stop looking for the answer and wonder, “What's the next question? What else might we know?” What else could we understand about this that would help us move forward on it? Wow, this did not go at all where I thought it would go. You know, we haven't even talked about COVID-19 and the pandemic that we're still dealing with and what that means for collaboration. And it's a big deal.

I think just briefly before we wrap up: certainly, this team I mentioned to you before, I'm having to do this work with them entirely over Zoom. They know each other well. Most of them, anyway, have been together for years. So, there's some comfort there with each other, anyway. But it's harder to work through the conflict bit, to get people's nerves settled. I find, as the person facilitating, I miss some of the more subtle cues, right? We're not sitting around a table. I don't pick up a vibe.

Matt: Yeah. They haven't done this work yet. But I'm telling you… well, I guess they have. Daft & Lengel a while back when they talked about media richness, they said cues kind of get filtered out by the different media. I think because we see and we hear each other and those are very salient senses, we think that's it. But being in the room, that feel, that feel is gone - that energy…, I don't think people are studying this yet. It's almost like when you're trying to teach or hold sway, broadcasting that energy through this medium is really challenging. And that energy is critical to this getting along and understanding. We don't have any research on it yet, but this is my call to any researchers listening - get on that because we've got to figure out what the hell's going on here, you know?

Carlos: Yeah. Make your name, be the next Zig Ziglar or Stephen Covey by figuring out how to add some human richness to the virtual experience. It is challenging. Let me say this and then we'll wrap it up: what I found is I have to do what you've talked about. I have to ask questions because I don't know, I'm missing things. I simply have to say, “Matt. How are you feeling about that? What's going through your mind right now?”

You are having to teach remotely and I think you even said you're teaching your course on teams asynchronously.

Matt: Yes. Yes.

Carlos: All right, man. We will explore what that means at another time. But this has been a really full conversation. Thank you for entertaining some of my questions. I'm sure we have provided value to my brilliant listeners who can walk away and feel like they've got something they can take back to their teams remote or otherwise. So, Matt, thank you.

Matt: Yeah, thanks for having me on. I mean, like I said, I'm glad to see you continuing the mission. It's always nice to see your various blogs and books and workbooks because when we first met your scholar practitioner view is much needed and I'm glad you're building that bridge.

Carlos: Well, Matt, thank you. That's so kind of you. And to my listeners visit my website, Carlosvdapena.com. Leave your comments. And we'll look forward to having you with us on our next episode of Teaming with Ideas.