Empathy and Accountability
Clint Kofford is a colleague, a friend, and an exemplar; a guy who has taught me a ton about leading teams, working effectively with people, and about leadership.
Whatever it is, the way you tell your story online can make all the difference.
Clint Kofford, MSOL
My name is Clint Kofford and I’ve had a really interesting career. I’ve been able to work for a lot of cool brands and companies. I currently am the head of the Human Performance Institute at Johnson and Johnson where I get to lead all of our talent development efforts. When you think about executive development, manager development, any of the broad professional skills that many of our people are looking for in their careers, that’s what I get to help lead, and lead a team doing at J&J.
Prior to my time at Johnson and Johnson, I worked at Nike where I was the head of our talent management organizations for the geographies: within all of our marketplaces, all the integrated talent management practices. Prior to that, I had a number of different roles in talent and leadership development at Mars, Inc. for about 7 years, which is kind of where I grew up in the corporate world. Previous to that, I spent some time at the US Olympic Team and a midsize startup.
So, it’s been a really interesting career because I’ve never worked in the same industry twice. I’ve worked at all kinds of organizations in terms of life cycle: startup, a very big mature non-profit. I’ve seen the upsides, the challenges, really kind of fun to see the full cycle of business.
The US Olympic committee? What did you do there?
I was brought there by a previous boss, a boss that I had worked with at the startup at the beginning of my career after I finished grad school. The intent was, and what we did was set up Olympic University. The intent was to provide additional value for Olympic sponsors that really only get to activate that sponsorship every 4 years. So as a way of increasing value we attempted to take some of the lessons learned in sport, and translate that into executive development that could then be offered to these sponsors. So when you think of VISA, McDonalds, Home Depot, etc., could we provide them with more additional value more regularly than just every 4 years by helping them lean into the lessons learned from sport as applied to leadership development.
Probably the most fun I’ve ever had and could actually call work. I learned how to bobsled, how to play judo and all sorts of different sports, but all truly kind of as work, as we worked with leaders from various companies.
Early lessons learned from teams
Do you remember the first team you led and any lessons you learned?
The first team I remember leading was when I was a missionary for the Church of Latter Day Saints. I was leading a team in St Petersburg, Russia. I was 19 years old, thousands of miles from family. We had one president that oversaw a group of 120 of us volunteers. I had specific responsibilities for about 12.
At 19 years old?
Yes, at 19 years old in the suburbs of St Petersburg, Russia.
And were all of these folks native English speakers?
A majority. There were a few native Russians, a Mongolian, and a Bulgarian. That was my first team. Super challenging because 1. In essence what we’re trying to do is share and spread religion, and that’s not necessarily what most people want, at least in Russia at the time. Inspiring and helping the team, and even myself tap back into why we chose to be there and what we were trying to accomplish I think was the essence of leading the team and other components played into that, such as setting some goals for us, some targets that could be met. But a lot of it was around helping people to tap into purpose and what made them want to be there, get up out of bed every day, to continue to work hard despite -40°F in the winter, being outside on your feet in that type of weather and other conditions as well. That’s not easy. It’s not easy to motivate people in that situation.
Was there a need for interdependent collaboration among you?
There was less inter-dependency required. But for me it was just more of the first time trying to unite everybody in a collective goal and vision, and trying to support and tap into the purpose that would motivate them, drive accountability. There were conversations that had to be had around how time was used and not used. Despite the volunteer aspect of it there were still some performance metrics just to help inspire and then improve the capability. Providing feedback and what not. In some cases, it was around the language capabilities and how well they could understand Russian, but in most cases it was around their capability to teach, providing feedback and coaching, etc.
How was it that a 19-year-old was asked to lead?
I was assigned. I was assigned by our president, the one “adult” in the area. Mine was a “district” or a group of 12.
Learning from mistakes: the fallacy of the power of being right
Somebody recognized in you leadership potential. Was there any you learned from what went wrong that sticks with you?
Oh, yeah. Power is a very delicate item. I never considered myself to be overbearing, but I think there are definitely lessons around how you motivate, how you inspire, how you wield power. I think what I learned most in that situation was trying to prove that you’re right. Whether it’s because you actually are right or that you have the power, from the positional power perspective.
What does that look like, trying to prove you’re right?
In this situation it would be working with different groups and trying to help them see that they could have been more effective in teaching or taught more, or provided more hours of service. There were guidelines for us. As an example we were supposed to serve a certain number of hours in the general community and that could be accomplished in a number of ways. If others weren’t doing that I needed to have conversations with them even though the rule might be set at 2 hours a week at a minimum, and I asked them if they’d done that and they hadn’t done that, in my mind they should have put in their 2 hours of community service. Realizing that just honing in on the hour or the rule because I’m the leader of the district, those don’t work.
There were performance expectations, somebody did not meet those expectations, and you as the boss had to provide feedback. What I’m intrigued by is you were right in this situation and they were not. So what’s the problem?
The problem is that’s not how human dynamics work. I think the reality is nobody wants to be wrong, and nobody wants to be proven that they’re wrong. Fast forward into our careers and how we worked both together and collectively at Mars. Influence is so much more powerful than telling or prescribing or directing. I think, in those moments as I reflect back and take those lessons learned it’s really about how you approach these situations. Yeah, you could hold people accountable for having missed these things. It doesn’t mean they’re going to hit those targets next time. It doesn’t mean that they’ll feel inspired or have a desire to change any of their behavior.
People leading teams is a lot about influence and the way you connect in a way that means something to them personally. The more you can stitch together individuals’ unique purposes into a collective purpose, it really provides the foundation for what meaningful progress you can make together as a team.
Influencing vs Informing: Leading a teachable moment
This topic of influencing vs. telling: an individual who has missed a performance target that’s clearly defined, and as team leader you have a responsibility not just to that person but to the entire team to make sure everybody’s carrying their weight because if one person doesn’t do their thing, it does in some ways let the team down. So you’ve got a situation where you have to provide the feedback. What’s the influence technique you use when the task could be seen as very black and white? How do you go from telling to influencing? What does that look like? What are the behaviors?
As leaders, whether we’re at home or in our community or formal work organizations, I think we come across this all the time. It may feel to us, as leaders, often that it’s very blatant, but I think on the other side there are some really good reasons and issues that somewhat justify or are at least legitimate in the minds of those that miss these targets that warrant some deeper understanding.
One of the things that throughout my career has helped me be successful that I certainly learned from my time in Russia is Covey’s classic “seek first to understand and then to be understood.” Too often as leaders of teams we’re feeling under pressure as you think about your responsibility for this wider group of people and you’re trying to move them so quickly, that you end up only moving yourself vs. stepping back and realizing that it takes a lot of time. Humans are emotional creatures. We’re messy. We like to think in black and white but the reality is we live in the grey. I think understanding what people’s situation is, what their motivations are, what is going on in the background that you may not see or understand. In today’s terms we might call it “psychologically safe” to be able to have that dialogue. I think that’s what inspires people to bring their best and collaborate, and work together and make progress. If you don’t, I think the risk is that all those behaviors go underground. You might get the answer that you’re looking for verbally, but the behavior won’t match that because we tend not trust those that lead us. Even if we know we’re in the wrong, if we don’t feel understood and appreciated then we’re likely not going to be motivated to change any of our behavior.
Empathy: the first step in gracious leadership
What you’re talking about is a kind of empathy. When’s it time to just say, “I got it, AND, now it’s time to get the job done?”
Yes. It’s not all puppy dogs and unicorns. I guess where I was coming from was at the beginning you can’t just sit down with someone for the very first time and say, “I’m going to hold you accountable. This is the standard… It’s this way or no way. ” I think it starts off with understanding. After you’ve done that and there continues to be challenges to meeting performance standards or violations of the agreement, I think it really comes down to having those conversations along the way and narrating as a leader what is in your mind. What you're frustrated with, what your expectations are so that there are no surprises. I think part of that has to be retelling the story of where you’ve been. You have taken time to listen, to hear them out, you see things perhaps differently or that you would expect that based on grace or space that has been extended in the past that performance begins to improve.
Accountability: the moment of truth
In the volunteer world that’s a little bit harder. You’re still at the mercy of what people are willing to give you. At work we obviously have to do a good job providing that space up front and building the relationships. But the time comes when people have to be held to account. I’ve had to let go or work out of the organizations that I’ve been with a number of folks that haven’t met the targets and the expectations, behavioral or performance for our teams. That comes through a number of conversations. There are no hard and fast rules. I generally try to go three strikes and you’re out. I’m working with you, I’ve tried to understand. We can come back a few times but at some point it has to escalate to “Do you really want to be here?”
I think that the biggest challenge is fear. People in organizations are going to tell you what you want. They’re going to say the right things usually because there’s a fear of losing the job. A fear of loss, of the unknown.
I think helping people navigate that so that ultimately, at the end of the day, it’s not a surprise. I can’t say I’ve been perfect at that in any way, shape or form, but I have been fortunate enough to have numerous times in my career people who have been let go actually thank me on the way out. They’ll leave me a present or write me a thank you note because of the way that it was handled.
So I think there is a way to hold people to account while also extending grace and helping them maintain their respect.
Grace is the root of gracious. It’s remembering we’re all people and are trying to do our best. Establish a human relationship with the people on your team, and within the context of that relationship you can then manage their performance in a more effective way using your influence skills. Is that a fair summary?
Yeah. Good information leads to good decisions. When you know the people holistically, you can make better holistic decisions.
The best team leading moments: lightning in a bottle
I’m curious to know about the best team you were ever on or lead: one that just felt exciting and vibrant and affirming.
Thankfully I’ve been a part of a number of teams that are like that. They are few and far between. These times are what I call lightning in a bottle where these periods of life where you manage to be on one of these teams and everything clicks. They’re certainly not to be taken for granted. A couple of those teams occurred when I was at Mars, like when I lead learning and development for North America, I had a small team that was in that situation, full of great talent, everybody on the same page and we were able to move a big agenda forward very quickly and have a lot of fun along the way.
I feel like I was able to replicate that at Banfield, so another division of Mars, Inc. And I feel like I’ve got the same situation going on with my current team.
Balancing leadership transparency with empathy
Is there a time when, as a leader of a team, you did something you regret?
There’s lots of things I regret. As a leader, I wish I was more perfect. In terms of good examples, the one that comes to mind the most was in the beginning of 2019, here at J&J, I knew that I was going to be needing to change things up with my team, both from the talent perspective as well as the organizational structure. As much as I legally could be, I was extremely transparent about what was going to happen. At the beginning of the year I was extremely clear that our team would be going through a massive transformation. How we were organized would likely shift. Skills and capabilities that would be needed for the future would need to be evaluated. I continued to be clear and straightforward as the year went on.
In this particular situation the changes that ended up taking place ended up being much bigger than just my team. It ended up influencing a broader department as some of the ideas and concepts that I was pushing for on my team were also recognized as needed in some other parts. So, it led to a much bigger organizational transformation. And I think the lesson learned here for me was that I was trying to be so transparent along the way that I probably did more harm to my team than good.
There was so much anxiety about what could happen every step of the way, that it ran a little counterintuitive to what my grand experiment was. I had this vision of creating a grand experiment that was really as simple as, “How do we run a re-org or a transformation process that could be as positive as possible, as transparent as possible?”
What I believe I was able to do was deliver on that. Regular, very clear updates on what was happening, as much as legally could be shared, certainly all the cues shared very, very early. The interesting part for me was that it caused more anxiousness and emotional fatigue through the process than it fostered energy and resilience based on people knowing what was coming.
I’m a big fan of transparency, but just like I was suggesting that empathy can be over done, transparency can be overdone. It sounds like it’s possible that we could overshare. Are there any lessons you learned that could be generalized as guidelines.
I think, in this situation, I needed to be more empathetic in this situation. I was trying to be empathetic by giving people information and cues, the reality is that with that kind of transformation taking place, it only causes stress and anxiety. It’s like ripping the bandaid off very slowly which can be more painful. Being clear and upfront in the beginning like I was, but not sharing regular updates, trying to make sure everybody was apprised until it was actually time to move forward, perhaps would have played out a little bit better.
Well, the conventional wisdom would be if I’m transparent, if I demonstrate to my people that I’m sharing information and that I trust them, they will then trust me. But it certainly sounds like it also has a dark side.
I think so. I think there’s limits, appropriately, to what we can share and I think, again, if I’d taken more time to really put myself in the shoes of my team, process that and realize that information is power but sometimes we’re not ready for everything.
Give them what they want vs what you think they need
We’re back to that idea of empathy again. I just started reading about how to grow a business, and the guy makes a really valid point about giving people what they want, not what you think they need. I’m certainly one with a story to tell and has what I think my clients need. But at the end of the day what people will buy, is what they want. Now, if those things coincide, great, then they’ll buy it from you. But if it's you giving them what you think they need instead of addressing what they really want, then you’ve missed the mark, and I think that’s what I hear you talking about.
With all the best intentions, you gave them what you thought they needed to have psychological safety when in fact, maybe they would have wanted it differently had you taken the time to build that empathy.
I think that’s well said.
Yeah, empathy. It’s such a powerful, natural human thing , and when I started in teams and leader development we taught these principles of management, the first one of which was Show Empathy. I hadn’t thought much about it since those days, so this is kind of cool.
What’s old is new.
Yes, what’s old is new.
The future of effective team leadership: Directing energy
You spent your time focused on leader development and I’m sure you’re getting exposed to lots of cool ideas, is there some idea out of the last 5 years that you think is really exciting and new and different that you think people should be aware of?
When I think about the work that you and I did together at Mars, Carlos, to me that is the tried and true, the foundational steps that create a recipe for amazing teams to collaborate. Whether they’re intact or cross functional, that notion of Inspire Purpose and Crystallizing Intent to being able to focus on how we build trust and harness the collaboration, and then getting into the tactics of how we work together, and then the sustainability part.
I think what has impressed me the most about the Human Performance Institute and being influenced by the work of Dr. Jim Loehr, one of the co-founders of the Human Performance Institute, is the notion of energy.
At J&J we’re now talking about and defining leadership as the ability to direct human energy. We focus very much on the energy that we bring. Not just physical energy, but mental and emotional and spiritual energy. Spiritual energy being purpose and how that purpose translates into meaning for you. And then, motivate and move all that energy in the right direction. I think that has me most fascinated around the application to teams. The energy of teams. It’s part of where the purpose plays and the focus and the priorities of the team through the intent and some of the other practices. I think it’s a new dimension or area that I’m really excited to dig in more to.
Who are we on our best days as individuals? Usually that’s a representation of the energy that we’re able to bring. I think the same has to be true for teams. How do we bring out the best energy and marshall that energy to really make a difference.
I am not the biggest NFL fan but if my memory serves me right, the Kansas City Chiefs were in the Super Bowl last year against the 49ers. They were down considerably before mounting a massive comeback, and then completely demolished the 49ers by the end of the Super Bowl.
The same kind of situation this year, but there was not the same kind of energy that helped them to resurge and take command of the game. I think it’s that factor. Clearly the Chiefs were an amazing team this year, and what they were able to do in the regular season, the statistics of the players, the unity, I think if we checked all the traditional boxes of were they an effective team I think absolutely.
The question is, on that day in that moment what sparked the energy comeback in last year’s Super Bowl vs. the inability to mount that comeback this year. I think that’s the new frontier that I’m excited about. The principles of the Human Performance Institute that can be applied in this space.
It’s all about managing energy. I get a lot of energy from chatting with you, Clint Kofford, so thank you very much. I know you’re a very busy guy with a broad responsibility, so thank you
Thank you, Carlos. It’s great to be with you. I appreciate all you’re doing in the world of teams and collaboration.
Well, it is a delight when I get to work with folks like you, Clint.
To my brilliant audience, thank you, and I look forward to having you come back.
Take care.