On Mutality and Team Leadership
Mutuality with Gary Clarke
With over 30 years of business experience Gary is an authentic value driven business leader with global and domestic CPG experience. He was fortunate enough to build a 20-year career with MARS right through from entry sales level to General management. He is well known for his ability to coach mentor and lead teams that deliver sustainable long-term outcomes. With this experience and passion, Gary has now founded 360Resolve a company that is driven by the belief that business and leaders have a huge role to play as we look to build more sustainable businesses through better human social and environmental practices.
Gary, did you get a degree in business at some point?
No, I actually didn’t; that’s what makes it quite unique. I left school at fifteen and started a trade. So I joined the FMCG industry at the age of thirty. So I’ve done a lot of different things before actually joining Mars, which makes it quite unique.
What trade were you trained in?
I climbed power poles, electrical poles. And I started about the age of fifteen.
That’s dangerous stuff, that’s risky!
It can be, yes, and that’s why I decided that I’d be better off selling things rather than climbing power poles.
From climbing poles to leading teams
One of the things that’s interesting about you and your bio is that you chose to go from being a productive member of society to being a consultant. I’m just curious to know - how did you land on that?
It goes back just a little bit. In the last role that I had at Mars, I was fortunate enough to join an executive education program at Oxford called the Economics of Mutuality, and it explores the idea of businesses’ role in society and environmental practice and how you can build sustainable businesses moving forward. And that fascinated me and really hooked me in. I spent a lot of time working with the team, I went through the program, I went back as a guest presenter, and I’ve continued to stay in touch with them. At the end of my time at Mars, I was sort of - as we all do - wondering what I was going to do with my time, and I’m quite altruistic so I wanted to give back. I felt that I could play a role in helping business leaders prepare for the future, because I think the future is a lot different than the past that I grew up in.
My business has three areas. It’s a coaching business, it does some business consulting, but it also does thought leadership, and the thought leadership area is where I bring the Economics of Mutuality program forward through a partnership with them and other business units. It’s sort of uncharted waters. We’re all looking at the condition of the planet and we’re looking at how things are operating; we know we need to change, and I think business can play a significant role in that, so I’m here to help.
If you Google Economics of Mutuality you’ll find a compelling area of social science and economics that was pioneered by our former employer, Mars Inc.
Early Teams leadership lessons
You’ve been a member of teams from your days climbing power poles, right on through your years with Mars. When did you lead your first team?
I’ve always led teams. I was lucky to be good enough at sport to be the captain, if you like. I always had a really strong appreciation for the value of players on a field, and I think when you’re young you don’t really understand the concept of teamwork other than to lead by example - what I was always taught. If you did your best, you would hope that everybody else would follow along. That concept was probably my first ever go at line management when I got into leading a business team. I thought, “I need to get involved and show everybody how it’s done, and then I’m sure they’ll follow.” It didn’t quite work that way.
What kind of team was it? What function?
I was working for Mars in the Petcare business. We had a team of territory managers. My idea of being a great line manager was to get in the trenches and do the work alongside the teams, which is one element. Boy, was I about to learn that there is a lot more to managing a business team than just showing them how to do things.
What I would do was replicate the behaviors that I wanted them to carry out, but what I was missing was that they actually wanted to know that I knew they could do the job themselves. So I was, very early, taught the lesson of, “it’s not your job to come out here and do my job for me, your job is to come out and help me do my job really well.” It sort of changed my mind quite quickly. I got the concept of being able to coach and mentor and support, and get off the field, if you like - if you want to use that analogy - get off the field, be outside and watch people and help them when they need the support. That was a really good experience for me and I’m glad I got that experience fairly young in my career at Mars.
“DRIVING” A TEAM VS LEADING ONE
Within that experience, Gary, was there one of those tough “aha” moments, when either someone sat you down and had some straight talk with you, or you just had a sudden realization that you’d put your foot in it?
I think I started to understand quite quickly that I was getting a reputation as being a driver, and that didn’t sit that well with me. “Here he comes again, he’s gonna come out and drive me.” I didn’t really enjoy that, and I heard it through the team. The team was starting to give me feedback - “This isn’t how we want to be managed, this isn’t how we want to be led.” I was lucky enough to be able to (a.) have a team that was giving me feedback, which I think is a really important thing, and then (b.) having the maturity to be able to respond to it.
Memorable leader and their lessons
It was fairly collegial, it sounds like. Do you recall a leader you worked with early on who was either a positive or a negative role model for you?
Absolutely. It was my first field manager that I worked for in Western Australia, and she very quickly invested heavily into my development. I couldn’t believe it, actually. I mean, I’d been in the business world for fifteen years, and done it all pretty much by myself; I’d worked for small businesses, or worked for myself. And then to have somebody who’s (a.) interested in you, and (b.) prepared to put resources behind you and help you grow - I was shocked, to be honest, and couldn’t believe it was actually happening. And I’m ever thankful and grateful, because what she did was set me on a path which really did tie well into my whole career because development is important. It does make a difference, and it can really transform you - the person - and your business environment. She was an amazing line manager for giving me the confidence to grow, just by clearly taking an interest in me and investing in me. I couldn’t believe it was happening.
She was a very firm believer in - there’s classrooms, and then there’s learning from others, and then there’s learning on the job. So she would constantly stretch me. I can recall I used to get quite angry because she’d just give me more tasks, more tasks, more tasks. But that was her way of finding out where my capacity was. At the time it didn’t feel like that.
The lesson you learned was about “don’t be a driver,” but it sounds like she was driving you pretty hard, Gary. Towards your development, but she was driving you.
I think she was, but not in the way that I probably was doing it to the team that I was experiencing, because I was probably going down this perfectionist trait as well. I wanted things to be done exactly right, all the time, in time, on full, no room for error. So it was a different type of driving, whereas she was driving me to find my potential. It’s a different feeling.
Leading By Example
I want to talk about that “leading by example” thing you talked about earlier, because that’s a very common phrase. Where is it right to lead by example, or is it ever?
I prefer to call it “setting the tone” rather than “leading by example.” I think when you’re talking behaviors - the way you want the business to run or the teams to run - then I think it is the role of the leader to set the tone of the business. But what I was confusing it with was that hands-on, right down into the detail, showing them everything, leading by example. But rather, setting the tone of the organization, and the values and the behaviors.
Whether you intended to do it or not, you were setting a tone of, “it’s got to be perfect, no room for error.” Was there any room to learn?
It’s quite stifling, the “my way or the highway” type approach. Whilst it might give you some short-term wins, it’s not going to give you long-term sustainable business growth.
Teamwork vs Collaboration
Teamwork is a generic term that describes a general tone of helpfulness and a sense of mutual support, whereas collaboration is actually working together to produce specific outcomes. What have you learned about getting people to work productively together?
I’d probably go back to a line manager again that taught me this. It was, again, my first time working for somebody who, instead of working individually on each of the people in the team, he was very engaged in the team dynamic. And what he was brilliant at was having these environments where you talked about how you bring personal commitment to each other. What you’re at stake for - your team member and the greater team. And then getting the expectations really clear about each person’s role in that team, and then the ramifications if you don’t do it, the impact it has on the other person once you’ve made that commitment. So, for me, that was a real step change. Instead of that line manager theory of “get the best players, put them on the paddock and make sure they all do the right thing, then you’ll have a great team” - this was being able to really drive personal commitment and clear expectations amongst each other, so that we were at stake for each other and the business.
What was this person doing, specifically?
There’s one that I’ve kept and replicated throughout my career: we used to go on walks together, basically. Each person would pair off. He’d give us a lead-out statement, something like, “If you were reporting to me, I would…” Or, “We would be better together if…” Usually he’d take us to a nice place for a team-building exercise and then we’d walk out into the forest or whatever it may be, and we’d have these conversations. We’d go round and round the team until everybody had had a moment with each other, and then we’d come back together and explore it.
So everybody talked to everybody else?
Yes, and we’d have those leading questions that he would use to drive the conversations. Guaranteed, there’d be a far better understanding of each other. We’d understand what was bugging us about each other, we’d understand what we valued in each other, and we’d understand what our strengths were and what our development opportunities were.
Questions to field to your teams
What was your favorite one of those questions, or two or three?
When you’re talking to a peer, and you open up with, “If you were reporting to me, I would…” I always found that interesting, because there was always that peer competition of who should be the next person to be the boss. You were sort of showing your hand a little bit by saying, “This is how I would want to have an interaction with you if I was leading you.” So that would always create a bit of a dance between the two of you. “If I was the boss, I would want this, and if you were the boss, you would want that.”
How well does that work with folks who aren’t terribly friendly with each other - it’s a new team and they just don’t know each other, or they just are different types?
I think then you’ve got to be a little bit careful about the questions that you send them out with, and you might not make them as provocative - which I actually experienced. I was leading a team that was multicultural. We had Dutch, we had French, we had different cultures across it, and they weren’t quite as comfortable with that type of interaction, so you had to sort of tone the questions back and build it in as a process. But what we did do was, each time they got together they knew that that was a type of thing, and they started to warm towards it and we built momentum behind it.
Hard-learned lessons to repeat
There have been certain lessons I’ve just had to learn over and over again. I’ve learned them but then somehow I’ve forgotten them. You know, I’ll do something dumb and then go, “Ugh, I ought to know better.” Where have you found that you’ve had to go back and learn a lesson more than once?
One of the challenges that I’ve always had as a line manager is knowing when just not to speak. We all call ourselves great listeners and we’ve got great empathy and we’ve got humility, but it’s a constant challenge, I think, as a leader and as a line manager. That moment of knowing that it’s not the right time to have an opinion or to have a view on something, and being able to just remain silent and stay in the moment. If I could master that, I’d be a very happy man, but I’m sure over the years I’ve spoken when I should have listened and I’ve given advice when I didn’t need to. I constantly work on it, but it’s still something that I think all line managers can benefit from - putting your two ears on and taking your one mouth out of the equation.
How to encourage talkers to listen more
If you were coaching somebody who tends to talk more than they listen, do you have any tricks or techniques - pointers, simple things that you use for yourself or that you give others to use in helping them master listening?
I think in team dynamics in particular, I’ve worked with people (including myself) on a speaking budget, which sounds a bit strange. So, you’re only allowed to speak three or four times in this hour. I use a thing called TPS - think it, plan it, say it. I learn by talking, so I’m a talker - so I have to think about it before I say it. Another very small one which I’ve done many times over my career is that I just have a little box in the corner of my notepad, and I put a dot every time I want to speak but I manage to constrain myself, and I celebrate how many dots I can have in there at the end of the day.
So, a lot of small things. They’re basic things, but any small trigger or tool that you can bring in tends to help better than just telling people, “You have to listen more.” They’ve got to be able to do something to identify a trigger.
Behavior Modification
When you’re the general manager or whatever, your words are pretty powerful at times, so you’ve got to make sure that you measure them and what you say.
I tend to be more of an introvert, but I do think out loud. When something pops up inside my fertile brain, instead of saying it, I write it.
What do you do when you listen? What are the behaviors of listening? Someone once described a leader I knew: “He doesn’t listen, he reloads.” Keeping your mouth shut until it’s your turn to speak.
I’m finding it very challenging, actually. I think if I look at my interactions in the last year, they’ve all been via Zoom Teams or Google Meet. Even that’s a little bit different because part of the listening process is how you position yourself relative to the person you’re listening to, the body language. And here, it’s a bit different - you’re sort of staring into this screen and trying to listen. I like the reload thing; I think for me, my personal catch is asking myself, did I think about anything while I was listening? If the answer’s yes, then I wasn’t listening. So I think that the goal, always, is to truly listen and not think forward and try to take the conversation. I’ve been practicing that for the last two years now. You get more into that coaching element of listening, and not having to own the conversation. Not owning the agenda and not driving the conversation into any particular shape - just being okay with the conversation.
I guess I should be embarrassed - I’m thinking as you talk.
You need to!
Listening – a collaboration muscle
If we isolate listening as one of the muscles of collaboration… My background is in the theater. I’m a conservatory-trained actor. It’s all about listening. The genuineness of what you speak, even though the words have been written by someone else, depends on having really heard what the person says.
When you’re talking back to reflecting on being in that team and doing these walks and talks and listening, I think one of the key questions when you’re listening to somebody is, are you there to give or are you there to take? Are you on the team to serve the team, or serve yourself? And I think that makes an incredible difference, if you can help people understand that being on a team or wanting to collaborate with somebody is as much about giving as it is receiving. If you know that you’re there to serve somebody, you’re going to listen a little bit more, because you’re open to their agenda.
For the young manager:
So, if I were a new young manager stepping into my first people-leading role, what’s on your shortlist of most important things to remember if you’re going to start leading and fostering collaboration in a team?
I think, firstly, it’s recognizing that it’s a tricky transition. Everything you’ve done, usually, to get promoted to line manager, has been through self-delivery. So it’s been all about you. As of this day, it’s not going to be about you any longer; it’s about how your team performs and how you can support them and help them grow. I think that’s the first one - paying attention to the transition and not underestimating it. It is difficult because you have to let your ego subside a little bit and make it about others.
Being really clear on the context that you’re leading your team in, understanding what the phase of the business unit is, understanding what’s happening in the marketplace around you, and then understanding what’s expected of you and your team is really important because you’ll need to select the right people, and you’ll need to build the right capability in the spirit of the context you’re operating in. If we’re talking about mistakes, that’s something I learned the hard way, I can tell you that.
When it comes to people and talent, I think your role is to be on the lookout for talent and nurture it as much as you can. Find talent, bring the best people onto your team, get the best people you have into the hardest roles. But then there’s a little trick I think we all fall into when we come into line management - we think we can change people. I think you’ve got to accept that they don’t change much, and that you’ve just got to look for their strengths and build them, and have honest conversations with them about what their strengths are and what they’re not so good at, and be very clear on that.
And then, I think you’ve got to have fun. In business there are a lot of downs, and when the ups come, you have to celebrate that and really endorse how well your team has done, and make it fun. Make it a really enjoyable space to be in. If you can have a legacy where anybody who’s worked in your team, twenty years later, can look back and go, “Remember when I worked in Carlos’s team? It was awesome.” That’s your goal as a first-time line manager.
Collaboration and the Economics of Mutuality
We started this discussion with this idea of mutuality. Can you put into a few words what the Economics of Mutuality is, and then, does collaboration have a role in doing this lofty thing?
The basic premise is that you shouldn’t be profting at the expense of any of the capitals that are available to you. So either society, the human capital, or environmental capital. If you tried to bring the whole ten years of work down into one line or sentence, that’s pretty much it. You’ve got to run a business that is actually sustainable, that can put back into the system what it’s taking out. So, understanding the broader ecosystem that your business operates in, identifying what the pain points are throughout the ecosystem, and then having management strategies to reduce the pain points, and making sure that you’re building a business that isn’t taking from the ecosystem. That’s the goal. In a mutuality sense, it’s about taking something out but putting something back in, and making sure that it’s a shared situation that you’re in, when you look at each of those capitals. If you look at Mars as a good example - you have a large environmental footprint; when we’re taking something out of the planet, what are we putting back in or how are we offsetting the issues that we’ve got? How are we managing that? So I think it’s a management philosophy, and it’s now becoming a management innovation - how do we build businesses that are doing this well? And it’s not just Mars that are focusing on it; the market is starting to shift. You can see it. Unilever were probably early leaders, and there are a lot of businesses that are really starting to drive that way. So that’s the thing that fascinates me.
If you talk leadership, I think then you’ve sort of got to get above what it means to be an achiever if you’re a leader. The great leaders were good on their metrics, strong on their process - inspire their people, deliver results - and now it’s a bit broader than that. As a human, what’s going on here? What’s your business impact? What’s going on in society? How are you a trusted partner? How are you valuing your people? There’s a lot more to it, to lead into the future. We’re looking for those new types of leaders, ones that can stand up on the table and look at the big picture.
So, if I’m not running a business or running a factory, what does it mean to me and my people to have that mutuality mindset?
People and entities and environments are all stakeholders to take into account when you’re making your decisions. You have to be in a collaborative mindset. It’s not just me saying, “I’m going to cut down that forest so I can plant cocoa.” That’s not sustainable; you start to leech the soil. So, you have to look at that forest and say, “We’re in this together, forest.” Much as you might to a teammate.
I think you just hit the nail on the head. How do we both grow together, and not at each other’s expense? When I grew up in the boardrooms, it was quite a competitive environment. I think there’s not a lot of room for that now; it’s narrowing people’s focus. It takes a very different approach, very different leadership.
Thank you for finding time; I really enjoyed this. And guys, if you have any comments or questions for Gary, you can post them on our website and we’ll make sure he gets them. Would you tell my brilliant listeners and readers where they can reach you if they want to?