Being Right vs Leading Effectively
Meet Hamish Thomson, author of IT'S NOT ALWAYS RIGHT TO BE RIGHT. Hamish is a Kiwi living and working in Australia. His roles, which have taken him around the globe, include former Regional President and Global brand leader for Mars Incorporated., senior marketing leader at Reebok International and, once-upon-a-time, a fresh faced account executive in the London advertising scene.
I'm in Sidney at the moment. Just remember, I'm a New Zealander, or commonly referred to as a Kiwi, slightly different from that Aussie twang.
Unapologetically I'm a typical corporate player. I've been doing this for about 30 years. I started out life in London as an advertising copywriter. I was a very poor copywriter and I was quickly moved to the field of account management, looking after clients as a liaison. I loved that environment - very fast paced, creative, and really was about relationship-building. Then I moved on to the sports and fitness industry with Reebok in Europe looking after the marketing and communications for Europe which I loved, as you can expect. Great fun, a lot of energy, excitement, really about emotional connections. I particularly loved the dynamism in the industry. Then I probably grew up a little bit and spent the last twenty years in FMCG, or CPG (consumer packaged goods) for Mars, Inc. I absolutely thrived and loved the global brand role. I did the CEO and regional president gig for 3 large markets and the regions within the world.
Then I made a decision which my wife thinks is crazy as does my former boss: I resigned and wanted to do something completely different. I've been within different start-ups, a few board positions, non-profits. And I wrote my first leadership book, IT'S NOT ALWAYS RIGHT TO BE RIGHT. A varied career but enjoyable to date.
Welcoming multiple views
It’s a fascinating read and I highly recommend it. At the end of each chapter you’ve invited a contrarian or a critical point of view from someone you know and respect.
In some ways it could be a little bit lazy so I don't have to write all within the book. I’ve got an insatiable thirst or curiosity. I love perspective, I love difference, challenge in thought leadership. I say I love humility within leadership, but I've also got a bit of an ego. With an ego comes a very firm set of beliefs and ideas. I do lay those ideas out in each of those chapters. But equally I've invited some key global leaders and heads of corporations, advocates of diplomacy or government-related external consultants, lawyers, etc. and I've asked them to directly challenge my concepts and my ideas. Some build on them, others have told me I'm a little bit off in this direction. But I love their perspective, and the beauty of this is in a few years, my views and positions will probably change as I get exposed to new experiences. That's the rationale behind it. So far, I’ve had very good feedback on that and I'm very appreciative to those individuals for contributing.
Somehow it adds a bit of tension or suspense because you just can’t wait to read what the comeback or the build will be, so I appreciated it.
Bad bosses are gifts
I always ask my guests if they remember an early boss experience. We always like to hear a bit about what goes wrong, don’t we? So tell us a bit about why bad bosses are gifts.
Like it or not, we all go through different stages in our careers. I've had exceptional bosses: those who provide very clear direction, inspirational vision, clarity, develop and stretch you and genuinely show compassion and empathy for you. But at the same time we've probably all had one or two of those bosses who went against us in our values, our way of working, were unsupportive and showed behaviors that we're not exactly in awe of.
From my side the beauty is, when you've had those bosses, the first thought is, "How do I get out of this situation?" As we're all aware people generally leave organizations or businesses not because of the business, but because of the boss. There have probably been 2 or 3 examples in my career where I've had less than ideal bosses. Every time you learn something incredibly valuable, an insight from them, and often it's "what will I NOT do?" versus "what should I do?".
When you get in a leadership position yourself, you look at those behaviors of your boss and you ingrain them to memory as, "When I get the chance to lead others, including leading myself, I won't ingrain those behaviors.” Often those bad bosses, there are characteristics within them that are exceptional. They are brilliant; they may have a stakeholder management or political agility. You need to look at those and seek them out. I document each of those within a file about our "Bad, Bad Bosses." There's a gift within all of them even though it's painful.
The eager revelation of a rookie
Do you remember your first bad boss experience?
Yes, I do. Within the London advertising experience there was an indirect boss I had. I was young, a graduate position, going to exciting industry events. I thought I'd discovered a new insight within the world of advertising. In those days we were just moving away from print and TV directly into digital. I rushed back, put all this information into files, put one on each of the directors' desks, thinking I'd discovered something. I view it like a black Labrador: I was proud, happy and waited for the praise to come in. One indirect boss who was the head of the media department tore me to shreds. I won't go into full detail, but essentially my opinion wasn't valued, my thought processes and observations hadn't warranted consideration from those above. Essentially, they said get back in your box very quickly. I think the odd Kiwi reference from Down Under was thrown in there at the same time, if you know what I mean.
The learning from that was, and it goes back to the Mars egalitarian element that every opinion counts, which I've drilled into my psyche of leadership: whoever you are in the organization, your opinion counts. My values of trust, dignity and respect for that go even higher now because of those experiences. The context behind this was that individual was under enormous pressure for revenue and billings, so there's a reason and a rationale behind their actions. Fortunately I survived, they didn’t send me home to New Zealand, and I lived another day.
Dignified dismissal or rejection
How can a leader take in all these opinions and say no to those that have to be said no to in a way that maintains that associate or employee’s sense of dignity or engagement?
There are probably two areas. The first one is a caveat I introduce called the 98% rule: when you get feedback from a boss or others - and let's face it there's a load of feedback in organizations: 360s, constant daily conversations, etc. - you listen to it, you consider it, but there's probably only 2% that you really take in and that resonates. As a result of that, you should refine your behaviors but don't fundamentally change who you are. That is incredibly important because if you do follow the majority of the feedback and change your position, your values, your stance, your way of working, we will not have the diversity of thought and ways of working - the differences that are required within business. It's a really hard thing to do at a young age. There's the intimidation factor and also copying the role model factor. You can very easily change and move away from who you are.
It’s a really hard one. At a more junior level, how you have a crucial conversation with a leader or a boss, how you challenge the perspective or directive that's put across. My view is:
1. You need to have that conversation. If you don't it will gnaw away at your psyche and you'll regret not having it.
2. You need to be very respectful in the way you have this conversation. Do it on a one-on-one basis. Do not make it personal. Qualify why you are feeling like this and how it sits within your values. Once you've raised it, be open to consider the other person's point of view.
When I was younger I used to take on senior leaders. I think I had that small-man syndrome and always wanted to push back, but I would do it within wider groups. It was almost manipulative and point-scoring. As a former sales and marketing person, I did it quite well, but it wasn't respectful. Please, do this respectfully and hopefully a good boss will respond well to it.
Respected AND liked
Something you bring up in your book is the value of being respected, and liked as a boss.
A lot of people challenge me on that, and I’m not saying I’m right or wrong. When we talk about being respected and liked, immediately when people hear "liked" they think you're going to be a soft leader, it means you won't face into crucial conversations. You won't make difficult decisions. Within a leadership position, you have to make plenty of difficult decisions over the years - factory redundancies, org structures, moving out of adjacencies, market conditions, market closures, etc. My general belief is respect is a given. It's a point of entry. There's no debate - if you don't have respect you cannot win the game. I've yet to be convinced there's any other way.
However, I have begun to question in those moments when I've stepped up, went over and beyond my job description, beyond my paygrade, and provided more of me in a project, an assignment, an objective, than I've ever done before. Every single time I did that it was for a leader I've respected, and I also liked. A genuine like, a warmth, knowing that they had my back, they had compassion and empathy. It was consistent when I looked over the years. I've been fortunate to have amazing, wonderful bosses. One recent one was a classic example of that. She was very demanding, challenging, developmentally stretching me but always had my back: consideration, care, compassion. I walk over coals for people like that.
Margaret Thatcher, the former British Prime Minister, always had the view that respect was first and foremost and you did not necessarily need to be liked.
I'm slightly different on that, but that’s how I’ve modeled my leadership style. So just the caveat again, respect is first and foremost.
I think it’s a fabulous provocation. And it’s very much about how you’ve put it. When you’ve reflected on who you went the extra mile for, it was always for someone that you liked. I’d love all my listeners to reflect on that. Think about those bosses you’ve done the extra for and then conversely, think about the bosses you really struggled with. How often did you make the extra effort for them?
Defining “liked” in a business setting
Maybe it’s about how the word, “liked” is used. It doesn’t mean you like going out and having a beer with them or playing football with them. You used the word, “warmth.” I like that. There’s something about their humanness that you’ve warmed to.
Many years ago, Carlos, you instilled within me and members of the European team as part of your HPC framework: when you have a genuine connection with another based on full mutual trust, compassion, support, knowing they have your back, you can have the most crucial conversations. When I look back at the feedback over the years, even though at the time I didn't like the conversation or sometimes the content, the context and the way it was expressed to me I did take it to heart because I knew those people genuinely had a warmth and a compassion for me. Previously, if I didn't have that like and I thought it was their agenda, I probably would have dismissed that content entirely - maybe naively.
It’s no longer about getting the team to like me, it’s about getting the team to love each other.
Most of us have gone through many a year with different surveys, generally around satisfaction, engagement, leadership qualities. I've always taken those surveys very seriously. Obviously wanting to be liked as a leader, along with respect is critically important for me. I always wanted the great scores, that connection, and I wanted the team to love me directly. Then, it was pointed out to me, if you're a leader, it's very easy to get your team to genuinely like being engaged with you because if they don't, and they don't have a positive relationship with you, it's not so much the leader who gets hurt. Sure, they won't get the best out of people, but the subordinate is generally the one who gets hurt. They won't get developed, they won't get the autonomy and freedom, they won't have the motivating, inspirational assignments or relationships passed with them. So generally they will do everything in their power to have a great relationship with their leader. That's great, but the real insight is the best team relationship, and this goes back to your HPC framework, is not so much the leaders themselves, it's more around how the team, those peers, interact, connect with each other, support each other, treat their team as their first team, putting the business first and your function second.
When I first became a senior director, my predecessor said to me, "Hamish, it is now more important to get on with your peers than to get along with the team you lead." That's where I just love this concept of business first, function second, from board downwards. It changed my way of looking at things, particularly measuring team performance.
Team relationships and bonding
What are the behaviors or practices that a team leader might consider to foster that kind of relationship among team members that report into them? Is it really about going out and playing golf together?
In my case, it's not about getting on the golf course, I think I’d embarrass them all. As a leader, you shouldn’t be providing your team with the answers. A number of leaders are very charismatic, they take the lead and the responsibility, and take the share of voice ahead of anyone else. But the quiet achiever, the humble leader, sits back and lets the team have their opinions and their say without rebuttal, even if it's slightly off on a different tangent. The leader always has the top of the hierarchy in decision making. But the more times they follow their own direction, and believe that their view and position is more valued than the team’s below them, then they won't get their team working in harmony.
The other one is, provide and create shared purpose objectives for the team that are collectively owned. Sales director, sales team, sales VP, marketing VP, supply VP all have separate projects they're working on. Give them a shared agenda and a collective objective to go forth, and give them the freedom to go after it, and it will create a shared bond, a shared purpose together. When you have that, the group will come to you as a leader collectively with issues. So, a supply chain manufacturing lead will come to you with a sales or a marketing issue, and that HR person will come to you with a financial perspective, and then you know you've got a team. They may be ganging up on you but definitely working in unison.
The real danger is if you don't do it, you immediately stop other people from stepping up. There's dormant potential in every single person. As a leader if you've always got the right answers, if your way is better than others, you don't need people around you. That is what managers do. A leader will unlock potential and let others take the lead and direction, even if it's different from their own.
Results are nice but awards matter
There is one last bit I want to follow up on that stuck with me. “Results are nice but awards matter.”
Like any good copywriting, hopefully it gets people to come questioning immediately, thinking, "Surely you can't mean that." This came directly from my early advertising days after a boozy lunch with an incredibly inspirational creative leader in the agency who turned around and said, "Yeah, results are nice but awards matter." I thought he was having a bit of fun, but he was very serious.
The entire message was, if you can create an internal hype and excitement and inspiration at a motivational level - I’ve termed it “euphoria ” - within a business, extraordinary and exceptional things can happen. The power of meaningful rewards, not ones you can buy, matter more than you think. A majority of people who get a sustainability award or a Great Place to Work award or an individual award for associate or individual of the year, those awards you can take back to your family. At the barbeque, you talk about those awards and walk taller. Often as a leader you get more serious, you get more tangible lagging indicators of results, you take your eye off of those less tangible factors that make people step up and do extraordinary things. They're not mutually exclusive, but if you get the right focus on rewards which is generally a customer service mindset or an external factor first, they do lead to results.
In reading your book and knowing you a bit, given your accomplishments, you’re really a very humble guy. It’s clear, even in the way you structured your book chapters, you want to keep learning. I find that so motivating. In your lifelong learning journey, what lesson have you found you’ve had to learn more than once?
Be bold. Be quick.
Thank you for that commentary and feedback, Carlos. We are consistently learning. As long as you can evolve it's key. Every leader I've spoken to in the latter stages of their careers and asked, “What would you do differently?” has said, "I wish I'd been bolder and faster." I hope I will continue to take calculated risks, always look at new opportunities. I've got constant dissatisfaction, born with a frown on my forehead according to my mother. I'm always looking for my next thing. My biggest struggle, at the heart of my leadership and my personal values, is something that Grant Reid, the head of Mars, Inc said, "Performance without purpose is meaningless, and purpose without performance is impossible."
Recently I've taken on a couple of different board roles, and one is with one of Australia's largest suicide prevention agencies, Ozhelp. It has solidified that I am a very driven individual, I’m results oriented, very performance oriented, but purpose has to be at the heart of everything I do. One of those purpose elements is unlocking the potential of others.
But equally, I realize that this purposeful nature to help others with their mental health, with making a difference to the planet, or many of the visions or missions within amazing companies around the world, including Mars and Reebok, etc; unless you are performance driven, you cannot make a difference through purpose.
Hamish, thank you so much for this conversation and for your insightful book.
You can find Hamish's book, IT'S NOT ALWAYS RIGHT TO BE RIGHT wherever you prefer to purchase books.